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Topic Title: strange sign painted in bike lane
Created On Saturday November 01, 2008 12:09 AM

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Trent Piepho
Senior Member

Posts: 138
Joined: Jul 2003

Thursday February 19, 2009 5:09 AM

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Originally posted by: Beck the biker
keeping vehicles within their lane

Cars get an unobstructed 12' to 15' lane with the best visibility. Bikes get a sand and debris filled lane that's 4' wide, with zero seperation from parked cars, the most limited visibility possible, the most obstructed by stopped and turning cars, and the worst pavement. Only a self-hating cyclist would appreciate getting put in their place in this manner. Without the line cyclist can use the whole lane, with the line they get "kept within their lane", as you said. Their lane being the worst possible place to be. You know what SDOcT calls bike lanes? Buffer zones. Maybe you want to be kept in your buffer zone, but I'd rather decide for myself where I will ride and not the let bicycle haters at SDOcT decide to keep me in the place that's most convenient for car drivers without any regard for my safety.

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Beck the biker
Senior Member

Posts: 871
Joined: Sep 2004

Thursday February 19, 2009 7:58 AM

Gary, Greg's got a great idea! WE know each other from CC.com, I don't dislike you, just your vitriol.

Trent, you can come too! we could go on a ride across the city, you guys can watch me take the lane next to bikelanes downhill, I'll watch you ride in the bike lane up Stone Way!!

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Gary Yngve
Senior Member

Posts: 679
Joined: Sep 2007

Thursday February 19, 2009 1:34 PM

Lets drop the whole academic wrestling match on causation.

I think the bike lane uphill on Stone Way is good.

Now how can we get SDOT to fix the stupid bike lanes/sharrows?

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Michael Snyder
Senior Member

Posts: 2011
Joined: Jun 2006

Thursday February 19, 2009 2:33 PM

Gary,
How about this for an idea, SBAB does bikeability tours and writes up reports that they send to SDOT, the city council, the mayor, and anyone else possibly interested.

What if we get a group of 3 to 12 of us together and start a regular ride together where we take our time, take photos, take notes, and come together at the end to describe the issues, perceptions, and requests for change? Attach each of our cycling-resumes to the report so they know that we are speaking from some experience and we might get their attention.

-------------------------
Car-Free since 2005

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Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3862
Joined: May 2003

Thursday February 19, 2009 6:49 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Michael Snyder
Gary,

How about this for an idea, SBAB does bikeability tours and writes up reports that they send to SDOT, the city council, the mayor, and anyone else possibly interested.

What if we get a group of 3 to 12 of us together and start a regular ride together where we take our time, take photos, take notes, and come together at the end to describe the issues, perceptions, and requests for change? Attach each of our cycling-resumes to the report so they know that we are speaking from some experience and we might get their attention.

This sounds like a good idea. Personally I would like to see these specific examples not only lead to them
being fixed yet a whole new implementation process such that these same errors are not just continually
repeated as they are now. This means the documentation should more than merely imply this.

How about 10 or so examples, pictures and documentation, of poor implementations of Bike Lanes and
SHARROWS with maybe a list of similar installations which display the same problems. Of course we will
need to describe how these examples could be corrected.

Some areas I would use are :

SHARROWS
3rd Ave NW North of Holman Road
8th Ave NW North of NW 85th St.
5th Ave N South ofNE 103 St.
There are plenty more (in fact about all of them)

Bike Lanes
24th Ave NW
8th Ave NW
Dexter Ave
4th Ave
2nd Ave
and a lot others

Both
45th St. West of I-5

How about create a route, publish it, then we can also bring pictures collected from other
sites not on the route. My ideas above on areas are just suggestions and do not need to
be included in the route if other good examples are used.

Count me in..... let me know when.

-------------------------
Rob - ***Car-Free since 1993***

Edited: Friday February 20, 2009 at 1:38 AM by Rob Brown

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Gary Yngve
Senior Member

Posts: 679
Joined: Sep 2007

Tuesday February 24, 2009 8:50 AM

a sharrows tour would be fun!

there's also a silly sharrow toward around Magnolia Blvd and Howe.. narrow bridge where the cyclist should aggressively take the lane, and sharrow is flush right

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Aili L
Senior Member

Posts: 403
Joined: Oct 2007

Tuesday February 24, 2009 11:19 AM

I'd be happy to take some pictures of Sharrows around West Seattle & the Alaska/Marginal bike lane...
If you are going to do this, let me know so we can coordinate.
I think it's a great idea to present it all at one time - volume over piecemeal may make a better presentation.

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Dennis Grace
Senior Member

Posts: 1397
Joined: Aug 2003

Tuesday February 24, 2009 11:36 AM

Here is my favorite sharrow on the inside of the fog line in a parking zone.
You cyclists need to skinny up and ride in the door zone of parked cars so that motorists can pass safely observing the 3' passing law!
Three feet is all you want, right? I'm sorry but when I ride here I take the lane.

-------------------------
Ride On!

Edited: Tuesday February 24, 2009 at 12:22 PM by Dennis Grace

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Michael Snyder
Senior Member

Posts: 2011
Joined: Jun 2006

Tuesday February 24, 2009 3:28 PM

I'm happy to help organize this. ...just not in the next couple weeks. How about early in April so we can have time to get it listed as a set of rides in the Courier? Any routes you'd like to look at besides the ones previously mentioned?

-------------------------
Car-Free since 2005

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Aili L
Senior Member

Posts: 403
Joined: Oct 2007

Tuesday February 24, 2009 6:03 PM

Beach Drive Sharrow: all-time worst, none of them on that stretch are any good, but that one kills me every time I see it. And people wonder why motorists are confused? I've called/emailed about that one too and the last I got was something to the effect of...those were installed very early on in the Sharrow program. We will take a look and have it fixed.

Dennis - did you ever hear anything from SDOT about it? (maybe the cause of your 3' comment which wouldn't suprise me in the least)

April works for me.

Edited: Tuesday February 24, 2009 at 6:06 PM by Aili L

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Michael Snyder
Senior Member

Posts: 2011
Joined: Jun 2006

Tuesday February 24, 2009 6:13 PM

Do we have any examples of really great sharrows that we can highlight and place in contrast to the abysmal ones?

-------------------------
Car-Free since 2005

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Dennis Grace
Senior Member

Posts: 1397
Joined: Aug 2003

Tuesday February 24, 2009 8:34 PM

Aili, I got the same response you did '...those were installed very early on in the Sharrow program. We will take a look and have it fixed.'
Still not fixed!

Michael, I have yet to see a SDOT sharrow installation that is really great! All that I have seen are small and to the right directing cyclists away from the center of the travel lane instead of very large and in the center of the travel lane suggesting that cyclists should ride in the middle of the travel lane because the travel lane is too narrow for a motorvehicle to pass a cyclist safely.

A bike ride to take pictures of all of these poor/improper sharrow installations would be a fun social event but time consuming. As you can see with the google-man on the street a person can find and assemble pictures of all these poor installations and present them to SDOT. SBAB, the mayor, the city council, or anyone who might care using existing google map technology.

-------------------------
Ride On!

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Michael Snyder
Senior Member

Posts: 2011
Joined: Jun 2006

Tuesday February 24, 2009 9:14 PM

I guess I'm thinking of a little more than just presenting the pictures, but also describing what works and what doesn't work about the route.

What is bad: Gravel, sand, door zone, etc.

What is good: Multiple lanes where cyclists can take the lane and not feel crowded by cars.

I don't know if we will find a lot to point out that is good, but I think it is important to highlight whatever we can that is good in addition to pointing out the problems and taking time to describe the issues to non-technical, non-cyclist elected officials and upper level managers.

-------------------------
Car-Free since 2005

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Shaun Darragh
Senior Member

Posts: 1046
Joined: Jun 2007

Tuesday February 24, 2009 9:39 PM

I don't have any pics yet, but I seem to recall the sharows at the top on the Magnolia bluff being large and centered in the lane.

The same is true of the sharrows on 45th in the U district - although the ones on 45th in Wallingford are awful...

Going down 10th from Capitol hill, the upper sharrows (newer) are somewhat better than the lower (older) door zone sharrows - this is ironic because the steeper the hill gets, the closer to the doors the sharrows get...

I'll try to remember to take some pics tomorrow.

Unfortunately, I think we all (well all but one) realize that there are more bad examples than good....

-------------------------
Please support my fight against Cancer by sponsoring me in the Livestrong Challenge: http://seattle09.livestrong.org/shaund

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Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3862
Joined: May 2003

Tuesday February 24, 2009 9:53 PM

Providing the Google Map Views is a good idea. Riding to at least a few of the
spots will allow some discussion to establish common ground for deciding what
the best remedies are.

-------------------------
Rob - ***Car-Free since 1993***

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Shaun Darragh
Senior Member

Posts: 1046
Joined: Jun 2007

Wednesday February 25, 2009 2:03 AM

I posted a shot of sand covering the gutter bunny sharrows on Melrose last week, but I thought this might be interesting as well.

Rob, I just checked google, but the sat photos for Magnolia Blvd seem to have been taken before the sharrows were laid down - same for 45th in the U district.

The spray paint sharrows show up on the Magnolia Blvd Street view HERE

-------------------------
Please support my fight against Cancer by sponsoring me in the Livestrong Challenge: http://seattle09.livestrong.org/shaund

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Aili L
Senior Member

Posts: 403
Joined: Oct 2007

Wednesday February 25, 2009 11:36 AM

I haven't seen a "good example" of a sharrow in Seattle.
I did find some good examples once when I Googled "bike sharrow" or something to that effect.

bikeportland.org has some from the city of Vancouver:
http://bikeportland.org/2005/09/28/new-sharrow-markings-in-nw/

and the City of San Fran did a study on them in 2004:
http://www.sfmta.com/cms/uploadedfiles/dpt/bike/Bike_Plan/Shared%20Lane%20Marking%20Full%20Report-052404.pdf

another study/paper done in Ontario:
http://www.ontariotrails.on.ca/media/files/pdf/member-newsletters/CBWS%20on%20Sharrows%20Oct%2007.pdf

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Bryan McLellan
Junior Member

Posts: 11
Joined: Feb 2009

Wednesday February 25, 2009 6:11 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Rob Brown
SHARROWS specifically are NOT meant to designate where to ride in the lane.

From SDOT BMP 2/2009 progress report:
"Did You Know? Sharrows guide bicyclists to the best place to ride within the lane."

Quote
Originally posted by: Beck the biker
John, I'd suspect some drunks from .83 or renegade vehicular cyclists trying to crack wise at the public's expense or a sophmoric kids prank.

Seems like a lot of work for some drunk in .83 to go through. They even kept in the lines. I don't know... I bet they had help.

Quote
Originally posted by: Dennis Grace
You cyclists need to skinny up and ride in the door zone of parked cars so that motorists can pass safely observing the 3' passing law!

3' recommendation in the state drivers guide. See HB 1491.

Quote
Originally posted by: Shaun Darragh
...sharrows in parking lanes on 4th downtown...

There's some irony in the nice 4th ave lane (albeit difficult to get to the start of it on the south end with traffic from all the two-way roads at the base) leading into sharrows that always have cars parked on them.

It was nice to see the mess fixed on 1st Ave near the stadiums southbound where the 99 offramp is. The old sign-age directed bicycles on a small unmaintained sidewalk between the offramp and a fence with a telephone pole in the center of it.

I could complain about the lack of facilities in SODO south of Forest, but it's kind of a moot point. I can't think of other sharrows I've specifically liked, but enerally I like that they increase visibility of the notion that bicyclists aren't regulated to the sidewalk. I'd go out and paint them on Airport Way myself if they'd let me.

-------------------------
Bryan McLellan

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Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3862
Joined: May 2003

Wednesday February 25, 2009 6:40 PM

Bryan that is even on the SDOT SHARROWS page and many of us have
complained about the statement. SHARROWS according to the MUTCD are
NOT designed to show riders where to ride, meaning they are NOT another
form of Bike Lane. That the SDOT does not "Get it" and that they also have
pedestrian groups (and others ill informed) helping to initiate the SHARROW
part of the BMP are just two parts of the problem.

SDOT SHARROWS

Which says incredibly :

Motorists:
• Expect to see bicyclists on the street
• Remember to give bicyclists three feet of space when passing
• Follow the rules of the road as if there were no sharrows

Bicyclists
• Use the sharrow to guide where you ride within the lane <---- THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG! see the MUTCD and other sources.
• Remember not to ride too close to parked cars <--- SOME OF SHARROWS and BIKE LANES MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE!
• Follow the rules of the road as if there were no sharrows <--- BELIEVE THIS MEANS BICYCLISTS SHOULD IGNORE THE SHARROWS.

WIKI on SHARROWS

Bicycle Technical Committee - Shared Lane Markings

The next two are .PDF and HTML versions of same :

SHARROWS are not substitutes for Bike Lanes

Canada agrees on SHARROWS

""Sharrows”, short for shared-use arrows, or shared lane marking, are bike stencils, capped by apair of chevrons and increasingly being stenciled on roadways where lane widths are notconsidered adequate for marked/striped bike lanes.“Sharrows” are not a substitute forbike lanes.

The “sharrow” guides cyclists on the road to keep clear of parked cars or the curb edge andreminds drivers to expect cyclists in their travel lane. In instances where there is inadequatespace to allow bikes and cars to share a lane side by side, the “sharrow” positioning shouldsuggest to drivers to keep behind a cyclist, or wait until a safe opportunity or adjacent lane isavailable for passing."

Notice here where the SHARROWS are painted :

SHARROWS

Michigan Info

California on SHARROWS

Search the Forum here for SHARROWS for more.

SDOT SHARROWS

-------------------------
Rob - ***Car-Free since 1993***

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Bryan McLellan
Junior Member

Posts: 11
Joined: Feb 2009

Wednesday February 25, 2009 7:02 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Rob Brown
Bryan that is even on the SDOT SHARROWS page and many of us have complained about the statement. SHARROWS according to the MUTCD are NOT designed to show riders where to ride, meaning they are NOT another form of Bike Lane. That the SDOT does not "Get it" and that they also have pedestrian groups (and others ill informed) helping to initiate the SHARROW part of the BMP are just two parts of the problem.

I already drank the koolaid and I'm with you sir. I suppose what we want them to be, and what they're used for aren't always (usually?) the same thing. Like saying muskets aren't for gathering ivory or such. And how.

-------------------------
Bryan McLellan

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