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Replying to Topic: strange sign painted in bike lane
Created On Saturday November 01, 2008 12:09 AM by m bicicletta

Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3862
Joined: May 2003

Wednesday February 25, 2009 7:03 PM

This is an except from the BMP at the SDOT. They seem to "Get it"
until the last sentence.

SHARROWS - A NEW KIND OF BICYCLE FACIILTY

Shared lane pavement markings or “sharrows,” are bicycle symbols
that are placed in the travel lane. Unlike bicycle lanes, they do not
designate a particular part of the roadway for the exclusive use of
bicyclists. They are simply a marking to help motorists expect to see
and share the lane with bicyclists. Sharrows are carefully placed to
guide bicyclists to the best place to ride.

BMP Newletter

-------------------------
Rob - ***Car-Free since 1993***

Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3862
Joined: May 2003

Wednesday February 25, 2009 7:10 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Bryan McLellan
Quote
Originally posted by: Rob Brown
Bryan that is even on the SDOT SHARROWS page and many of us have complained about the statement. SHARROWS according to the MUTCD are NOT designed to show riders where to ride, meaning they are NOT another form of Bike Lane. That the SDOT does not "Get it" and that they also have pedestrian groups (and others ill informed) helping to initiate the SHARROW part of the BMP are just two parts of the problem.

I already drank the koolaid and I'm with you sir. I suppose what we want them to be, and what they're used for aren't always (usually?) the same thing. Like saying muskets aren't for gathering ivory or such. And how.

Unfortunately if you compare SDOT's position on SHARROWS with the MUTCD, which they claim
to be following, and the positions of others who are implementing them, it makes the SDOT
seem to have a monopoly on a form of koolaid.

Maybe we could have SDOT require "Cow Catchers" on all motor vehicles for the safety of bicyclists. :disgust;

-------------------------
Rob - ***Car-Free since 1993***

Bryan McLellan
Junior Member

Posts: 11
Joined: Feb 2009

Wednesday February 25, 2009 7:17 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Rob Brown
This is an except from the BMP at the SDOT. They seem to "Get it" until the last sentence.

Sharrows are carefully placed to guide bicyclists to the best place to ride.

Any chance this means "the best routes to take" rather than the best place in the lane to ride? That's probably a trap... with rusty spikes at the bottom.

-------------------------
Bryan McLellan

Dennis Grace
Senior Member

Posts: 1397
Joined: Aug 2003

Wednesday February 25, 2009 7:25 PM

Bryan McLellan, I see that this is your first post. Welcome to this forum!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Dennis Grace
You cyclists need to skinny up and ride in the door zone of parked cars so that motorists can pass safely observing the 3' passing law!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3' recommendation in the state drivers guide. See HB 1491.

Thank you for correcting my incorrect ascertation that HB1491 has been passed and therefore a 3' passing law is not yet on the books here in Washington. Those who frequent this forum know that I strenuously oppose HB1491 for reasons that I have stated in this three feet thread. Since a majority of cyclists think that HB1491 is a good idea and support it being passed into law and most politicians do not ride bikes and are not lawyers even though they make the laws they do not understand why this law may not be a good law legally for cyclists, and why should they the majority of cyclists don't understand or care to understand why this will be a bad law for cyclists when it is passed here in Washington. Therefore it is just a matter of time before HB1491 will be passed and becomes law.

I apologize if I have caused you to think that I was mistaken and misleading others to believe that a 3' passing law is a good idea or already in effect like certain promotional campaigns that have recomended a minimum 3' passing distance. I should have notated my sarcastic comment with [sarc]You cyclists need to skinny up and ride in the door zone of parked cars so that motorists can pass safely observing the 3' passing law!Three feet is all you want, right?[/sarc] I personally want more than 3' feet as our current safe passing law allows. Yes I do want the whole damn road when it is too narrow to be safely passed by a motorvehicle. And I do not want to be directed to the right side of the travel lane by improperly placed sharrows to ride in a door zone so that motorvehicles can pass me unsafely!

Welcome to this forum!

-------------------------
Ride On!

Bryan McLellan
Junior Member

Posts: 11
Joined: Feb 2009

Wednesday February 25, 2009 7:40 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Dennis Grace
Thank you for correcting my incorrect ascertation that HB1491 has been passed and therefore a 3' passing law is not yet on the books here in Washington.

I saw the sarcasm I suppose, just the word 'law', yeah. Reading the other thread and giving it all two minutes of thought, I guess I'm pessimistically indifferent to a three foot law. I do sport a CBC 3' sticker on my laptop to make it clear to colleagues that cyclists are among them.

I picture a couple more referendums where we specify what should be important to police until they have a nice priority checklist under every sun visor in every patrol car to remind them what we want them to do. Maybe a computer to overrule them when they've forgotten their priorities. I 'spose you needs the laws to get enforcement started. How about a law that makes it perfectly legal for me to remove the horn from your car at night while you're sleeping if you honk at me for riding in a lane. Win!

Quote
Welcome to this forum!

Yay! I tend to spend less time talking (writing) in public forums about what I think, but work does need occasional distractions. All my bikey opinions are held in digital form elsewhere on the Internet.

Also, from an earlier link, various bike lane pictures.

-------------------------
Bryan McLellan

Beck the biker
Senior Member

Posts: 871
Joined: Sep 2004

Thursday February 26, 2009 1:25 PM

Excerpt of an E-mail I sent to the Chainguard Yahoo group of Vehicular Cyclists about the developing language of sharrows.

"the developing language of sharrows 'indicating the appropriate and legal position for bicyclists' should be supplanted with language along the lines of 'sharrows are informational signage along classed bikeways that bikes are allowed full use of lane; be aware bikes may be fully engaging the lane."

The improvement in vehicular operation seen by the influence of sharrows is measurable and positive.

I suggest a better avenue to drive sharrow lobbying would be not to 'skewer' (bad sharrows), but lobby to increase the size and centered placements of sharrows in lanes on classed bikeways where full lane use is indicated and expected from bicyclists, educate the public as to their informational intent, and begin to neutralize and supplant the 'legal and appropriate' language developing about sharrows.

'legal and appropriate' sounds positive on the surface but has potential negative connotations. Language about sharrows should be developing along the likes of "sharrows are informational signage placed along classed bikeways in lanes too narrow to be safely shared to inform road users that bikes will/may be fully engaging the lane for their safety."

Vehicular cycling is well served by sharrows, vehicular cycling advocacy is well served by sharrows.

If sharrows need to be increased in size or placement from edge of roadway (and I feel that there are improvements to be made in this area), MUTCD revisions in the future need to reflect this as the development of sharrows gain further codification into the MUTCD panopoly of traffic control devices.

I've personally ridden across many sharrows well placed squarely in travel lanes.

Berkeley has standardized a supersharrow for use along one type of classed bikeway there, it is big and bad and beautiful.

Sharrows: vehicular, informative, educational for all road users.

do sharrows need to be improved in size and placement and intent from these first rounds of experimental placements? absolutely. "

Edited: Thursday February 26, 2009 at 1:27 PM by Beck the biker

Dennis Grace
Senior Member

Posts: 1397
Joined: Aug 2003

Thursday February 26, 2009 2:55 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Beck the biker

I've personally ridden across many sharrows well placed squarely in travel lanes.

Mike, Please show me one SDOT installation of a sharrow that is "well placed squarely in the travel lane" without a bias to the right edge of the roadway. Just one! I agree with you that providing an example of an SDOT installation of a "well placed squarely in the travel lane" sharrow with the examples of SDOT's poorly placed sharrows will show SDOT that yes they can and have placed sharrows correctly and should revist and correct the poorly placed sharrows and should continue to place sharrows "squarely in the travel lane".

Yes "vehicular cycling is well served by sharrows" IF they are placed correctly "squarely in the travel lane". However the majority of SDOT sharrow installations suggest that cyclists ride 'FAR TO THE RIGHT' in a travel lane that is too narrow to accomodate a bike lane and therefore too narrow for a motorvehicle to pass a bicycle safely in that narrow travel lane.

Show us just one good SDOT installation of a sharrow.

-------------------------
Ride On!

Edited: Thursday February 26, 2009 at 3:23 PM by Dennis Grace

Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3862
Joined: May 2003

Thursday February 26, 2009 3:05 PM

Dennis I have seen a couple of examples of well placed SHARROWS locally and
unfortunately a couple is the exact number of individual ones I noticed. However
I can't remember where they were. Hopefully Beck can provide this bit of illumination.
Added that those were still likely too small and have no accompanying nomenclature.

Agreed that proper SHARROWS (size, placement, and nomenclature) assist in the
VC message. This of course just proves how important VC education is since it
also has to deal with how to ride when incorrect facilities are present.

-------------------------
Rob - ***Car-Free since 1993***

Dennis Grace
Senior Member

Posts: 1397
Joined: Aug 2003

Thursday February 26, 2009 3:18 PM

Quote
Dennis I have seen a couple of examples of well placed SHARROWS locally

Fantastic these will prove to SDOT that they can do correct installations of sharrows!
SDOT can then provide us with the criteria that they used for installing these "well placed sharrows" so that we can request that SDOT standardize the installation of sharrows to that criteria.
Or are these "well placed sharrows" merely the blind squirrel finding a few nuts?

-------------------------
Ride On!

Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3862
Joined: May 2003

Thursday February 26, 2009 3:51 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Dennis Grace
Or are these "well placed sharrows" merely the blind squirrel finding a few nuts?

They eat nuts?

My local Sciuridae

-------------------------
Rob - ***Car-Free since 1993***

Gary Yngve
Senior Member

Posts: 679
Joined: Sep 2007

Friday February 27, 2009 3:49 PM

The sharrows on University Way NE btwn 45th and 50th are outstanding. They are in the center of the lane and there is parking as well. My guess is because the street width is officially/legally not wide enough for the sharrows to be further right.

However what the city says is wide enough is less than what a cyclist really needs.

Many of the problematic sharrows I've seen follow one of two patterns:
- too far to the right on a downhill
- weave in and out because of changing parking rules along the street

I think the city is aware that the sharrows aren't ideal here, but instead of modifying the sharrow placement to save lives, they are putting the sharrow X feet from the curb/parked car in minimal sufficiency of the federal regs.

Joshua Putnam
Senior Member

Posts: 941
Joined: Aug 2004

Friday February 27, 2009 4:30 PM

I'm wondering if video would show the problems better than still pictures.

Shoot video of a rider trying to follow the course laid out by the sharrows, weaving erratically in and out of the lane, vs. another rider on the same street taking a prudent and consistent lane position.

Even if each individual sharrow meets some minimum standard*, good video would show the dangerous riding they actually encourage.

*Not that they do, but just for the sake of argument.

-------------------------
Josh Putnam

http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bike.html

Dave Sage
Senior Member

Posts: 114
Joined: Feb 2005

Friday February 27, 2009 5:52 PM

If the reg's stated 'x feet from the LEFT lane edge marking or actual location'

rather than (as I believe it states now) 'x feet from the RIGHT curb edge'.

That might make the more bicycle friendly 'center of the lane position'
more common than the 'under the parked car lane position'.

Also, the sharrows might just last longer (thereby getting more value from our $$ spent) if they were positioned between the tire tracks rather than under one where they will get rubbed out (no pun intended).

But no matter what, the whole concept needs better publicity & education to the general public as well as bicyclists as to what the paint means.

/rant/ I don't really care how or even if they mark the roads with paint as long as there is sufficient width for all users of the road surface. Really wish they would eliminate all on street parking, but that will never happen./rant/

Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3862
Joined: May 2003

Sunday March 01, 2009 1:50 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Dave Sage

rather than (as I believe it states now) 'x feet from the RIGHT curb edge'.

That might make the more bicycle friendly 'center of the lane position'

more common than the 'under the parked car lane position'.

Also, the sharrows might just last longer (thereby getting more value from our $$ spent) if they were positioned between the tire tracks rather than under one where they will get rubbed out (no pun intended).

But no matter what, the whole concept needs better publicity & education to the general public as well as bicyclists as to what the paint means.

/rant/ I don't really care how or even if they mark the roads with paint as long as there is sufficient width for all users of the road surface. Really wish they would eliminate all on street parking, but that will never happen./rant/

Dave check this out, you might get what you wish for to a degree.

Bike Boulevards in Berkeley - check out the SHARROW sizes.

Excellent Video on Bike Boulevards

-------------------------
Rob - ***Car-Free since 1993***

Gary Yngve
Senior Member

Posts: 679
Joined: Sep 2007

Sunday March 01, 2009 3:35 PM

Those are AWESOME sharrows!

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